Curse

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 13, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Wow, for real?

Henchmen are balanced around the same skill system as players are, just like Heros too.

Allowing base defenders as Henchmen makes about as much sense as adding Shiro and the Lich as new Heros, with their unique monster skills.

That is a completely different argument than that surrounding SF, which is a player skill and not a monster skill.

But nice try, I'm sure at some point, some day, you will come up with a compelling argument, but it is not this day.

To the first point, she had the pics taken and without much resistance allowed them to be passed around. It wasn't some malicious computer nerd hacking her account and distributing them to everyone as you seem to be inferring with this statement. You also can gfy with this whole internet nerd virgin played out bs, you don't know who the **** any of us are or how much we get laid or don't get laid. If a girl with a nice rack gives tert pics to someone on a forum and then makes no effort in denying the fact I think it would make us gos to not want to see them. To the second point your post comes off as ridiculously pathetic and overcompensating. I get the feeling that you are one of those guys who is constantly life tilted that the girls you fall in love with always go for *******s and never want anything more from you than to be "just friends." I can imagine its really aggravating to put so much effort into bending over backwards for these girls only to time and time again have them go off and hook up with another guy who you deem to be an *******. Let me let you in on a little clue, girls like to be ****ed by *****, when you act like a little nurturing bitch its not gonna turn them on because they most likely see you as a pathetic figure who would likely cry after sex and profess your love to her the next day. So next time before projecting your insecurities out over internet how bout you unclench your ******* so your balls can finally drop into your sac and then maybe, just maaayyybbbee, you'll finally get the girl.

Tenebrae · Dec 13, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

So you abused a game exploit that allows you to have more heros than you are supposed to?

Pot calling kettle...

Game exploit ? uh stop right there , those are big words dude. Those heroes are like Henches , only follow the general flag and cant force them to use nothing. In fact , if the person leaves with "avoid combat" in all them with i think they stay like that. Anyway still 7/8 ... and that has nothing to do with SF or this topic.

Seriously , the "hey , there are more broken/bad designed things besides SF" argument has no point in here. Its like stealing a car and tell the police officer "hey , there are more cars being stolen , even BANKs being stolen out there" .
Yeah sure pal but still you are arrested.

No point in complaining about HM design , 600/smite team , UW and or elite areas design , we all know this game is far from being perfect and with no manteinance monthly fee ( oh yes , that stuff that 90% of the online RPG games have ) they are doing a "not bad" job.

I still have fun with comments like "Hey , at least XXX gives solutions , you are only being sarcastic" ....... yeah sure , solutions for what ?. Theres nothing you can say or do here that will stop the incoming skill update. Are there more stuff that needs to be balanced ? oh yeah but still SF is going to be "reworked" yes or YES , so move on. SF is on top list of the broken stuff to fix and its SO unbalanced and broken that Anet finds it bloody hard to "rework" that skill without turning it into dust like Smitters Boon pvp.

PS: For all ppl that dont like ppl that thinks like me .... soz guys , this has been discussed for so long and so many times that some of us find it exhausting to repeat same stuff , reasons , answers and rational arguments over and over again. My apologies.

Kaleban · Dec 13, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Game exploit ? uh stop right there , those are big words dude. Those heroes are like Henches , only follow the general flag and cant force them to use nothing. In fact , if the person leaves with "avoid combat" in all them with i think they stay like that. Anyway still 7/8 ... and that has nothing to do with SF or this topic.

He claimed he could solo with a Sin, I called his bluff and he admitted that he had done it with 6 Heros. Bringing along Tahlkora on Passive with a customized skillbar is much more effective than the generic Lina Henchman build. Not to mention that a "solo" player in UW shouldn't have more than four characters, since Henchmen are not ascended, which is how ANet decided to balance it.

So he exploited a game mechanic to get more powerful heros in an area designed not to have them. Given his vociferous hate on SF and cries of imbalance, this is hugely hypocritical.

The rest of your post is pretty full of fail, sorry, not even worth responding to.

UnChosen · Dec 13, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

I think at this point its time to agree to disagree. Kaleban, if you didn't notice, Yelling literally camped at his comp for like the entire day just arguing (just check all his post times)....no wonder he doesn't care if the game dies for pugs because he spend so much time on this thread instead of playing.

Just like Tenebrae I'm getting tired of retyping my argument over and over. We'll just have to wait for the update. Far better to save my typing strength for after the skill updates to try to get Anet to change the unbalanced area/reward, and underpowered class...because I can then put out my argument without it being lost in a bunch of nonsense by someone.

Kaleban · Dec 14, 2009, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

because I can then put out my argument without it being lost in a bunch of nonsense by someone.

You're right of course about both sides being intractable, however I lol'd when you wrote this.

There's ALWAYS going to be someone filling up threads with nonsense to distract people from the point, usually those on the losing side!

SlipknotOFA · Dec 14, 2009, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Its not hard to remember that guildwars isnt suppose to be soloable. They dont want you to SOLO period. It ruins the ecomony why do you think ectos got to be so low. Elite areas arent suppose to be done in 7 mins ... Unfortunley they are going to be reminding you by nerfing shadow form and some other builds. Every single time they do a major change there are alot of QQ That choose not to adapt.

Like with the 6 man HOH, When they changed the agro twice, Nerfing ursan ( Just like they are going to do with shadow Form), When They changed the grinding on titles, When they changed the book when rit came out.

Its not like a big secert that they just came out with... Since the beginning they said Guildwars isnt suppose to be soloable. It sucks seeing everything so low to begin with greens golds and stuff like that. God they even nerfed the drops trying to stop you to solo.. They even made it where you cant even solo area over and over again.

Steps_Descending · Dec 14, 2009, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You make very valid points, and I agree with them. The way ANet designed it, the classes that make it in the elite areas are the ones with the most resilience to being spiked down, especially in places like DoA. The Sin is very poorly designed in this respect, as are other classes suchas Mesmer or Ranger, that do not DIRECTLY contribute to either overwhelming DPS or damage mitigation.
...
A Sin can be a very effective melee nuker, the problem is getting into melee with DoA creatures with 70 armor. When ANet designed the Elite areas, its almost as if they had the Big 3 in mind as the only classes people would take.

...

Untrue, my point is that to make it in "Elite" areas, all classes should bring something to the table, such as Mesmer Interrupts or Ranger spirits and such. The problem again, is the way ANet designed these areas, such that the only valid solution is massive DPS, solid tanking and crazy healing/prots.

...

My hope is that ANet DOES change SF so that it is not so dominant, but along with that buff other skills to make them more desirable in areas that are Elite. Along with THAT, I hope ANet buffs skills on the other marginalized classes, like Rangers and Mesmers, to give them some reason to be taken along.

Know what? we basically agree on a lot of things. But as an overhaul is unlickely, the best alternative to stay true to sin concept would be to make SF enough protection to support collateral damage, but not tank.
How about somethign along those lines : 100% maintainable (with cd-reduction and all), you take half damage and can't be the target of spell.
Or attacks and spells targeted against you have 75% chances to miss/fail.

Hope fully that would give the needed survivability while being impratical for tanking. Tought the first could allow tanking, you'd need to stack damage redux enchants, which is OK in my mind. If a character wants to survive so much as to stack 5 enchants on himself, he might as well be allowed to.

Dunno for you, but what really bugs me with SF is that the glass cannon is also the best tank (without really trying to be one, aka without stacking 9 000 defensive buffs). Plus the fact that SF was a fragile kind of invincibility as opposed to a war or elem who would be more on the ductile side. Not that fragile is bad, just when it proves that strong.

Steps_Descending · Dec 14, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

He claimed he could solo with a Sin, I called his bluff and he admitted that he had done it with 6 Heros. Bringing along Tahlkora on Passive with a customized skillbar is much more effective than the generic Lina Henchman build. Not to mention that a "solo" player in UW shouldn't have more than four characters, since Henchmen are not ascended, which is how ANet decided to balance it.

Actually, if you go back to his first post :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

You don't need to group with people for most of the game...and even then, you only need 1-2 other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

H/H Underworld and let me know how that goes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I have done.

Completed the entire place, with me and 6 heroes (let the other person leave, just wanted his heroes)

Yelling didn't say he could H/H everything, it was Keleban who gave the challenge.
Yelling went with 6 heroes : aka 2 ppl and 6 heroes, but with a "leaver".
So he may not have won the challenge, but he did proove HIS claim was true.

toocooltang · Dec 14, 2009, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Seriously? How you can possibly believe that SF is even close to being balanced. THe whole "its not the skill but the mobs are broken" arguement is dumb. Need proof > http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/u...t10416792.html

Even after the biggest zone redesign since sorrorws furnace it took less than two weeks for UW to be done under a con set.

Also despite all the attempts to nerf DOASC it still happens, COP nerf, VOR etc etc. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/u...t10416792.html

You know the problem here is SF, with cons you have six slots 100att pts to invest in whatever you want. You also can ignore the majority of the game and those things that do affect you are easily countered with shield sets and a self heal. The only area which isnt the case is DOA, even then infuse and LB is enough to protect you.

If you really think that SF is a skill that allows groupings of these elite area's to be done by normal players, think agian. These truely elite players have the time to grind out 640k eotn rep pts, do the same runs over and over, tweak the builds and tactics to get these truely amazing times and reap huge profits. While your average player is left attempting to copy the builds tactics by reading wiki. You will never be an "elite" player by reading wiki, you have to PLAY THE GAME and UNDERSTAND IT. SF just makes the divide even greater to overcome because the elite players sequester themselves off from the majority of the community ingame, the only interaction you have from them is postings here. I think most "elite" players will tell you that most of their knowledge game from someone else that taught them "how to play" Certainly they didnt learn everything but they would have learned alot. If you don't have the chance to play with someone better than you how will you ever get better?

Tenebrae · Dec 14, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Yelling didn't say he could H/H everything, it was Keleban who gave the challenge.
Yelling went with 6 heroes : aka 2 ppl and 6 heroes, but with a "leaver".
So he may not have won the challenge, but he did proove HIS claim was true.

Can you hear that ? its the sound of truth hitting you in the face mate

. And for exploits , yes , armbrace issue was a game exploit , was a bug being abused and ppl got banned for that so NO , asking someone to give their heroes is not an exploit no matter what you say and do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

There's ALWAYS going to be someone filling up threads with nonsense to distract people from the point, usually those on the losing side!

Good for you ! first step is to admit you have a problem.
You are here to tell ppl that white is black ..... nor gray , or a dark color , no . At this point the "SF defenders" , that never had a real argument , cant even shout "hey , if SF is so broken/unbalanced , why didnt anet do something ?" and they are coming with some "wtf is this guy thinking" stories. Please , even some posts are funny , some of them are not.
If you want to go offtopic, fine , but telling someone he fails or trolling stuff like that when you are going offtopic yourself or doing the same ...... is not even funny anymore pal , dont think ever was.

upier · Dec 14, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Why are people still throwing around the (im)balanced-argument?
SF is not balanced.
It's not supposed to be.

PvE is to big to achieve skill balance. So by trashing SF, the game will just be slightly less imbalanced. You will not achieve skill balance by trashing SF.
If on the other hand you are trying to achieve class balance by nerfing SF, then you are screwed also. SF is a farming tool - so by trying to achieve class balance where SF is used, you are trying to class balance farming. And in farming ONLY the best tools are always used. There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to go with the options that isn't as good for the job as the best option but might have additional benefits. Which means you will NOT achieve class balance in farming by trashing SF.

Trashing SF will not influence balance enough in this game for this to actually be a valid reason for it's nerf. You are just trashing it for the sake of trashing it. And if that's the point - then don't be a pussy hiding behind "balance". Just flat out say it.

Kaleban · Dec 14, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

Yelling didn't say he could H/H everything, it was Keleban who gave the challenge.
Yelling went with 6 heroes : aka 2 ppl and 6 heroes, but with a "leaver".
So he may not have won the challenge, but he did proove HIS claim was true.

My challenge was to H/H Underworld with a Permasin.

Which means 1 player, 3 heros and 4 henchmen, just as it would for any other area in the game where you "H/H."

The whole point of my post was to sarcastically point out the FACT you can't H/H Elite areas like UW, because you can't take Henchmen.

He then got around the point by using a "leaver" and basically "Herowaying" which is vastly more powerful than taking a bunch of unoptimized henchies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Can you hear that ? its the sound of truth hitting you in the face mate . And for exploits , yes , armbrace issue was a game exploit , was a bug being abused and ppl got banned for that so NO , asking someone to give their heroes is not an exploit no matter what you say and do.

Wait, what? The armbrace issue was a bad bug, which also happened to violate the EULA (duping/hacking), which is why people got banned. "Hero dumping" is not a breach of the EULA, BUT when you're attempting to discuss game balance, its not difficult to make the obvious connection that under all NORMAL circumstances, any one player is restricted to three (3) Heros.

By having a buddy come in and leave his Heros for you, you altered the gameplay balance in your favor, making said area easier. This isn't a tough distinction to make, I'm not sure why you're so hung up on simple details?

Quote:

Good for you ! first step is to admit you have a problem.
You are here to tell ppl that white is black ..... nor gray , or a dark color , no . At this point the "SF defenders" , that never had a real argument , cant even shout "hey , if SF is so broken/unbalanced , why didnt anet do something ?" and they are coming with some "wtf is this guy thinking" stories. Please , even some posts are funny , some of them are not.

I'd like to respond to your posts, with the hope of having a decent argument. Unfortunately, your command of English is too poor to make sense to me. If you're attempting to claim that SF supporters are just blindly holding on without making constructive comments to get things changed, I could go quote most of my own posts in which I lay out gameplay changes, some simple, some sweeping, that would eliminate the problems that cause symptoms like Permasins to erupt.

By contrast, your posts are simply filled with sarcasm and ad hominem attacks which do nothing but obfuscate the issue and prolong useless commenting. You remind me of those guys from College Humor who do the "Internet Commenter's Business Meeting." Nothing solved, nothing handled, just useless back and forth.

Quote:

If you want to go offtopic, fine , but telling someone he fails or trolling stuff like that when you are going offtopic yourself or doing the same ...... is not even funny anymore pal , dont think ever was.

Contribute something to the discussion or stop posting. Stop insulting people and attacking their opinions. Offer a counter opinion that is backed up by logic and reason, not "n00b" and "I R 1337." At this point I have to wonder if you're posting just to make people annoyed, or if you're really unable to understand the nuances of the discussion.

isildorbiafra · Dec 14, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Just 4 more days and we will finally be rid of this ****ing thread! Woooooooo Hooooooooo.

JR · Dec 14, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Yelling @ Cats & Kaleban: If you two would like to continue your largely off-topic back-and-forth debate, excluding all others, I suggest you do so via Private Message.

Tenebrae · Dec 14, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

This isn't a tough distinction to make, I'm not sure why you're so hung up on simple details?

Maybe because details are what make something a bug , an exploit or something against Eula ?.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'd like to respond to your posts, with the hope of having a decent argument. Unfortunately, your command of English is too poor to make sense to me.

Booooo , that was a low blow but coming from you , not surprising or unexpected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

If you're attempting to claim that SF supporters are just blindly holding on without making constructive comments to get things changed

Ill say it again for the 384th time , even though i dont expect you to understand me.
"Theres no way in hell that something you say here is going to change ANYTHING" . Update is coming , all your words in favor or against SF are pointless , thats what im saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

By contrast, your posts are simply filled with sarcasm and ad hominem attacks which do nothing but obfuscate the issue and prolong useless commenting. You remind me of those guys from College Humor who do the "Internet Commenter's Business Meeting." Nothing solved, nothing handled, just useless back and forth.

I guess sarcasm wont make you see that you are doing the same BS you say im doing with other ppl in this thread. Like ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Contribute something to the discussion or stop posting. Stop insulting people and attacking their opinions. At this point I have to wonder if you're posting just to make people annoyed, or if you're really unable to understand the nuances of the discussion.

See ? its like looking in the mirror . And btw , you are the one insulting , all your posts are full of name calling , "you fail" . Stop doing that , just wait for the update because nothing here is new , no one is posting suggestions for the change ( like it would matter but at least is something ).

Kaleban · Dec 14, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Maybe because details are what make something a bug , an exploit or something against Eula ?.

No.

Bug = something that doesn't work right, could be harmless to catastrophic

Exploit = something within the game engine that allows an advantage, may or may not be "bannable"

What makes the difference is the legal language of the EULA. Duping armbraces was exploiting a bug that violated the EULA. It actually remains to be seen if "Hero dumping" will be fixed, although given the state of the game it would make sense for ANet to just allow 7 Heros at a time. I doubt as an exploit that its serious enough to warrant banning, but it is still an exploit of the game.

Quote:

Booooo , that was a low blow but coming from you , not surprising or unexpected.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, just noticing a trend, and the part of your post I quoted was literally unintelligible to me. I apologize for any offense, I did not mean to, which is why I tryed to puzzle it out.

Quote:

Ill say it again for the 384th time , even though i dont expect you to understand me.
"Theres no way in hell that something you say here is going to change ANYTHING" . Update is coming , all your words in favor or against SF are pointless , thats what im saying.

Contributing in a constructive fashion is never a waste, you never know if and when a random idea on the boards might be incorporated into the game. I don't speak my mind for any sort of recognition, I simply want to be heard and in the process, hopefully ANet will take a more moderate approach than heavy handed skill nerfs, and realize the actual problem is making areas totally inaccessible to classes which are not totally optimized to either DPS, Heal or Prot. All the "support" classes like Ranger and Mesmer are left out in the cold.

Quote:

I guess sarcasm wont make you see that you are doing the same BS you say im doing with other ppl in this thread. Like ....

MOST of my responses have been overly wordy and long, I admit, but I feel in general have been constructive and address the issues brought up. While I don't want to start a flame war of accusations, several "others" posts have been one or two line "zings" with no intention to further the discussion or come to some sort of compromise/agreement. I try to avoid those as best I can.

Quote:

See ? its like looking in the mirror . And btw , you are the one insulting , all your posts are full of name calling , "you fail" . Stop doing that , just wait for the update because nothing here is new , no one is posting suggestions for the change ( like it would matter but at least is something ).

I will respectfully have to disagree with you, but will of course stop short of quoting yours and others posts which are full of what you accuse, and also stop short of comparing my posts to those to demonstrate how many more suggestions I propose by contrast.

Several posters in this thread have attempted to point out constructive ideas, one of which is that to make the game balanced for all the classes, the areas need to be revamped to make said classes attractive to party play. The viability of such a solution, given ANet's record is quite low though, and I sympathize with the air of despondency surrounding the future of the game.

coil · Dec 14, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Seriously? How you can possibly believe that SF is even close to being balanced. THe whole "its not the skill but the mobs are broken" arguement is dumb. Need proof > http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/u...t10416792.html

Even after the biggest zone redesign since sorrorws furnace it took less than two weeks for UW to be done under a con set.

because people like challenges.

instead of bitching that a skill is "too strong" on a forum people are using it to find new, quick, extremely efficient ways to get end chests. some of them dont even care about the chest (which does get annoying at times) and just want a quick completion time.

like its been said before, this is proof of player innovation & progression. add to that static monsters with predictable skills....you know what youll face EVERY time and just have to design a team build around completing these predictable areas with semi predictable spawns.

and if it hurts you so deeply, there is a very simple ai mechanic that can be changed that will kill the 20 minute runs. try to figure it out and send it in to gw support and your name will go down in history as the one who killed the new uwsc forever.

anyways...

i dont really care anymore but i'm just gonna throw this out there..maybe they wanted to implement the assassin as a "rogue" type character and since there is no threat level or dis-agro ability, they couldn't fit a "stealth" type skill in the game mechanics but they wanted to and this was the outcome. after all an assassin should be able to assassinate something right? kinda like a ninja. so anyone crying is obviously a pirate fanboy. qq. flame away

Arduin · Dec 14, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

after all an assassin should be able to assassinate something right?

Shadow Form is indeed an assassination skill, you are invulnerable to nearly all damage, have 20 odd seconds to dish out damage to an enemy, but you have to make sure to get out before it expires.

The ability to have perma Shadow Form on the other hand is a far cry from assassination. Quick in, quick out is my idea of an assassination. Not tanking 10+ enemies all at the same time, without getting hurt the tiniest bit and still be able to kill those enemies at your leisure.

But we will see what Anet and the Krewe are up to.

Koning · Dec 14, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

Shadow Form is indeed an assassination skill, you are invulnerable to nearly all damage, have 20 odd seconds to dish out damage to an enemy, but you have to make sure to get out before it expires.

The ability to have perma Shadow Form on the other hand is a far cry from assassination. Quick in, quick out is my idea of an assassination. Not tanking 10+ enemies all at the same time, without getting hurt the tiniest bit and still be able to kill those enemies at your leisure.

Yep, this is how it should be imo. In no way being able to contantly maintain it, but just long enough to assasinate a key target, and when thats done the player should retreat from battle.

Gun Pierson · Dec 14, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Shadow Form: Enchantment. For 8 seconds all hostile spells that target you fail and all attacks against you miss. Your next attack does 10 000 damage and can't be blocked. Shadow form ends when you attack.